Getting feedback can feel overwhelming and be a bad experience, if done wrong. It can feel personal and agressive, and can often leave you feeling bad about yourself.
Giving feedback is a super difficult, and is not, contrary to popular belief an exercie of guiding people by telling them what to do, its about making people understand what to do.
Giving feedback is not about finding and sharing solutions, its about finding problems.
In this episode, you will learn
- What feedback really is.
- How to recive feedback, and use these sessions contstuctively.
- How to give feedback the right way.
- How to avoid getting into a defensive mode, where you stop listening
- How to help people open up to recieve feedback
- How you can be candid and kind at the same time.
Resources
Creative Inc. (The book where the braintrust is described)
Transript
Martin Whiskin 0:02
You’re listening to hidden by design a podcast about the stuff that you didn’t know about design. My name is Martin. And this is
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 0:10
Hidden By Design.
Martin Whiskin 0:11
Nailed it.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 0:12
Oh, yeah. And my name is Thorbjørn, the podcast starts
Martin Whiskin 0:18
and we should start recording now
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 0:20
You’re not recording?
I don’t know how to introduce this one, actually. Hi, and welcome to giving and receiving feedback.
Martin Whiskin 0:31
That was an excellent intro. That was that was me giving feedback.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 0:38
Thank you for that good feedback. So I guess today, just a little bit of a disclaimer, I had a surgery. And therefore every time I laugh, it hurts really badly. So. So every time I laugh in this episode, just know that it’s it includes pain. And that’s probably why I also sound a little bit. Not as slick as I usually do. But this is this is amazing. So we’re going to, we’re going to go through today about giving a receiving feedback, which is today’s episode, which I’m very excited about. And you haven’t shared the quote of the day with me, Martin, so I’m just really well really eager to hear
Martin Whiskin 1:24
what it is, I feel that I’ve built it up far too much. We’ve been chatting, but so yeah, the quote of the day, given that this is about giving and receiving feedback, the quote of the day is from Jimi Hendrix, and it goes. “Beeep (Feedback sound)”
I’m sorry, please keep listening. The actual quote of the day is from John clays. And I read a great book from John Cleese recently just about creativity and how he gets into the creative zone for writing and stuff. And it’s very small, a very small book, but it’s worth reading. So John, Cleese said “He who loves most learns best?”
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 2:09
Yes. And that is. That is, I like the feedback one better, though. So I think it’s like one of the subtitles I wrote was emotional management, and laughing and being open. Is, is part of, of, of, of receiving. And giving feedback is like having a good environment. So I might have made a little bit of a mistake, because I’ve prepared a lot for this episode. So but I think it’ll be fine. So in this first half, we’re going to talk a little bit about what feedback is, and what kind of roles and and what feedback is like in general. And I try to I try to write down one sentence that kind of encapsulate what feedback is, and and I got to this, and I don’t know if you will agree with me Martin. If you have other ones, like other other takes on this, but for me, at least feedback is a conversation with the purpose of improving something was like identifying problems. So but improving something, I had discussions with my girlfriend about this, because she said something is such a vague word. But I kind of stuck to it. Because it can be anything you can get feedback on anything, the way that you talk, the way that we do podcast, a product that you’re making a drawing that you made, there’s there’s no boundaries to where you can give feedback. However, common for everything, when it comes to feedback is that it’s the same rules that apply. So typically, I say, when you’re giving feedback, there’s three hats doesn’t mean three persons, but there’s three hats that you have to wear. And the first hat is to facilitator. And there’s the presenter or the want the receiver of feedback, and then the giver of feedback. And typically, the facilitator is something that’s mixed between the giver and the receiver of feedback. If that makes Do you have any questions? Or comments?
Martin Whiskin 4:32
I’m sort of the I was thinking about the feedback being a conversation, which I think it is, for me. Spot on. Yeah. But I also think there’s situations where, and I’m sure lots of lots of listeners have experiences where they’ve had feedback at work or something like that. And it’s not been a conversation. It’s just been, you know, that’s not how I wanted it done. Do it again. Yes, but better sort of attitude. And that obviously puts people in, that puts their backup, I think, yeah, it doesn’t put them in the right, the right place to do it better, they start to resent it.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 5:12
And I guess that that’s what improving comes into the picture, right. And that’s where the conversation needs to be done. So I decided we’re not going to do a lot of talking about the facilitator, typically, when you have bigger circles of a feedback sessions, right, where there’s 10 people or so, and a group is presenting something for someone else, then it’s nice to have a facilitator. But usually, if it’s just one person giving feedback to another person, just, you know, sharing that responsibility of facilitating and making sure that you stay on topic is, is kind of, it’s kind of important. So it is an important role, or hat, in that. But typically, you can make it I wrote Pixars “Braintrust”. And I’ll link in the show notes to that, because it’s, it’s a, it’s an amazing feedback form, I’m not going to talk too much about it, but Pixar just generally develop this idea of a brain trust, where they invite the most talented people for all of their movies, but also the small ones, to give candid feedback on what has been done so far. And the way that they do it. Is is kind of amazing. I really, really like it. Because if we go down to the receiver, right, the one who gets the feedback, the, the difficult part about getting feedback is, is that sometimes you end up in a situation where you identify as a work you you’re doing, right? So in in pixels, braintrust. That’s the whole purpose of that. That conversation is that you release yourself from, from the work you do, and you open yourself up to feedback. And as as a receiver, that is one of the things that you really, really need to do. And detach yourself from your work. And one of the ways that you can sense or see yourself not being detached from your work is when you start to become defensive, and explain why things are the way they are. So when someone says, Well, this doesn’t seem right to me, or are you sure, this is what you want to do, and you start explaining and arguing for this is the right way of doing things. You’re kind of defending your ideas, you’re defending your, your design, or your presentation, or whatever it is that you’re getting feedback on. And you want to get rid of that. Because that also means that you stop listening. You’re you’re trying to not do the extra work, and you’re not in that, you know, finding what to improve, because you already think that what you did is perfect
Martin Whiskin 8:12
How do you not attach yourself so closely to your work? Because if you fall, and this would be the same, like when I was writing music in bands and things like that, if I took a song, I’d spent hours and hours, maybe weeks sometimes on creating what I would say is the perfect version of this song. And then you take it to rehearsal, and they say, well, we need to change that bit. I don’t like that bit. And I would get immediately defensive because it’s like, well, no, this is my thing. It’s part of me that I’m giving you. So how do you separate that out?
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 8:44
But I don’t know much.
Martin Whiskin 8:48
It’s fine. You’re not well? Well,
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 8:52
so there’s some tips and tricks, I guess it’s like, generally, because I suffer from this, like everyone who does creative work suffer from this, because, and it’s it’s kind of interesting, right? Because in order to do something well, you have, it’s like you are what you do, and you identify as the stuff. And so what you have to do is in the situation where you’re receiving feedback, or you’re getting feedback, you have to mentally detach yourself from what you’re doing, it doesn’t mean that, that you shouldn’t, in my opinion, at least, that you shouldn’t identify as you work. But in that feedback session, you have to understand that there’s a bigger purpose, than, is like you’re trying to find problems in what you made. And and that means that if you get into a defensive mode, which you do, if you identify as the work, it’s like really, really easily, then then you’re incapable of actually receiving feedback. And I think that’s, that’s kind of like the the giver of feedback can help you a little bit here if if they’re really good at giving feedback. But, but but I find that it helps me to, for example, sometimes I’ll just pretend that it’s someone else who made it. I’ll just tell myself that it’s not my stuff. I’m trying to get feedback for someone else. And I just pretend. And that works for me. So in general, just, you know, not not thinking it as you, but thinking of it as someone else.
Martin Whiskin 10:34
When I have, like my voice over coaching, they sent me homework for the next session. So I have to go off and record a piece in my interpretation, and then they sort of listened to it on the next session. And they can be critical of that piece of work, because obviously, they want me to get better so and I don’t get defensive in that instance, I think it’s because I know that I’m going to be learning from that feedback. Yeah. So that’s another stance to take, isn’t it, that you’re just, you’re just learning other ways and other ideas of of getting to the best final solution? Yeah.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 11:09
Yeah. And maybe also, sometimes, it’s like just saying, this is their opinion, and you’re going to make a note on it. And sometimes, just giving it time, as soon as you made the note, someone said something, and you’ll, you’ll be able to, to, to actually reflect on it later. So sometimes it doesn’t work immediately, you need time, especially if you’re you’re deeply involved.
The last part of being a receiver or the one who gets the feedback is to be prepared and understand what it is you want feedback on. So it’s like as your example Martin, where they send you some work on something you have to record, and then they will give you a critique on that piece. So then you’re aligned on what it is that you want to. And in many ways, this is where the facilitator sometime comes in is like, you have to be prepared, you have to understand what it is that you want to get feedback on. So I guess that that’s the receiver, the one who gets the feedback is, is an attempt to open up and distance yourself from the work and understand that you’re looking for problems in the work that you did the perfect work that you probably did. But you’re looking for places that it can be improved. And there you need a different set of eyes, or ears or something else. Let me just rephrase that. And if you have a really good give her a feedback, they will help you get into that mode. So there’s an equally is equally difficult to give feedback as it is to receive feedback. Is is my experience, like sometimes I really, really feel that, that giving feedback is more difficult than receiving it. I think from from what I’ve learned over the years, specifically, what I’m trying to make people open up to listen to what I say, I have this rule that even though like even if I’m a manager of a team, or it’s like, especially if, if my recall, authority weighs heavier than the person I’m giving feedback to, it’s very, very easy to go into the stance and say you need this like just as your example someone will take your piece. And they will say I don’t like that I don’t like that do that this, this. And this instead, it’s very, very easy, because it’s it’s quick. It’s to the point. And but it’s not feedback is just telling people what to do. So my my kind of mantra or my essay, giver a feedback is that my job is not to tell people what to do. My job is to help the receiver understand what needs to be done. And that understanding is just so typically, because what what happens, for me at least is that I see something great that someone made and it makes my brain go oh, man and then we could also do that as like I’m firing ideas like my my brain just go into solution mode. Just trying to see like how do we solve all of these things? And I’ll give you know advice and I’ll say you could do this and and this is also a way of doing it. And so I will tell people how to solve the problems, but in reality, that’s not my job. So give her a feedback. My job is to giver of feedback is to make them understand the problems because getting ideas on how to solve things is easy. It’s also really, really fun. But as a give her a feedback, that’s not your job, your job is to help them understand the problem and, and the challenge is set in this stuff that they did so far. And then if they want advice, you can kind of say, well, I would probably solve that. But that’s not your primary job, your primary job is to, to identify problems, not solutions. And so I find it that, that in order to make people really, really open up instead of, of, you know, going back to that, telling people what to do, and rather, you know, understanding what to do, what I what I tend to what I find works the best is when I asked questions. So I asked questions of why did you do that? And? And how do you think you could solve that problem? Or what are some of the problems you’re thinking of solving with this? Right for the end user?
Martin Whiskin 16:13
So my question was going to be here, and I think you might have just answered it. Your job is not to tell people what to do. But your job is to help them understand what needs to be, needs to be done. So what if that person? So you’re sort of guiding them to the solution without telling them what it is? But what if they what if they can’t grasp that? What if they can’t make that connection? To get to the solution? How do you not tell them in that instance? What needs to be done? And is it by by just keeping asking questions, like you were saying until they until they work it out?
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 16:46
Yeah. So that is a good question. Because it’s like, I often I find it if you keep asking questions, at some point, they, you know, the receivable will kind of get it. And, and the magical thing happens is when you really get to, like get the receiver like you in a feedback session, where I get some, like, I definitely have an idea in my head of like, how would I solve this. And if I can, if I can, if I can get to a situation where we don’t talk about my idea of a solution. And then typically, what happens is that the solution that comes up is different from what I would suggest, and better than what I would suggest. Because understanding the problem and really getting to the core of things is, is typically, just just like, as I said, typically getting ideas is not that difficult, especially if you understand problems, sometimes the solution just gives himself and you don’t have to think about it too much. And, and by and by really, really having a conversation about the problems or challenges that you need to, to solve with your design or your PowerPoint or your voice reading. As soon as you understand it, the result will always be better. And sometimes due to time pressure, and stuff like that, you will just go like I would solve it like this, or here’s an idea of how you could solve it. In that case, typically, I will, I’ll try to emphasize that you can come up with something else, my solution is not the best. But this is how it would solve it just as an example.
Martin Whiskin 18:40
And I guess in that, when you’re in that far into the discussion, because it’s a conversation, they’re already more accepting to things anyway, rather than you just saying, you need to do it my way. Or you need to do it like this. But if when you’re in a conversation, and you’re exchanging ideas anyway, that’s when it becomes a more sort of accepting environment.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 19:03
Yes. Yeah. And, and put on top of that, if your authority, it’s like when I’m the manager, if I’m the boss man, in the conversation, what I find is that, that getting coming up with ideas as an example is more difficult, because there’s just like, the human mind just works in the way that authority weighs. Like even if I’m not as clever as just like, so my design team, all of my designers are more clever than I am. They’re better at design than I am, by far. And I still have to give them feedback. So but I guess that’s what I’m good at, in that constellation. The problem comes when I use my authority to to say I would do it this way, because it’s like the more authority I have in the conversation. It’s Like the power balance of that conversation is off. And you have to respect and understand that. It’s like you would like it not to be, and in most like, I used years, because in my mind, I was like, I don’t carry more authority. It’s very difficult for me to understand. And, and I use a lot of many years of that, too many, because I thought, Well, I never respected authority. So, so but the more the bigger the power difference, or the authority difference is between the giver and the receiver, the more careful you have to be as the giver of feedback. Because just like as a client, for example, right, I guess, when they like with your example from before, they would send you some, like you would send them something, they will give critique on it. And in many cases, you will just adjust and do what they tell you to.
Martin Whiskin 21:01
Yeah, in my with with work. So with voiceover work, it’s very, it’s very one sided feedback, because they have a very strong idea of how they want it to sound. Yeah, most of the time. Yes, I can interpret, you know, the script in my own ways. But if there’s something that isn’t to their liking, they will just say, No, can you do this bit like that? And that’s it. There’s no discussion, there’s, well, 99 times out of 100. There’s no discussion in why I think my way is better. It’s just do it this way. And I will go and do it. And during live sessions, we’re recording this instant feedback. So if I do a line in a certain way, they might then just say, well, actually, can you do this line? Like this? All right, yeah. And then and then I will just do it straight away. No questions asked. What’s the difference between feedback and instructions? Because that’s, is that feedback for me? Or is that an instruction that they’re giving?
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 22:02
Yeah, I would say, and this is this is exactly is like, why I say my job is not to tell people what to do. So give her a feedback. My job is to help the receiver understand what needs to be done. Right. So So in your cases, I would say a piece of sound, what I would focus on is what is what’s the emotion that we want the listener to, to feel? And what is the problem we are trying to solve with it? So if it’s, if it’s for, you know, putting people in a wait, like, you know, let’s just imagine you’re doing a phone answering thing for a doctor, please hold Exactly. So the emotion did you want to say there’s too little focus on these automatic services? Were you in queue, right? And too often they put this annoying music on
Martin Whiskin 23:01
Oh, Yes.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 23:02
Or no, it’s just, I don’t know who came up with that idea. But far, no. We don’t want that music, because then I can’t put my phone anyways. The reason is probably then I can hear I’m still in queue. But it’s just really bad music. And it’s loud. And it’s annoying. And they could just put a tick sound every three seconds like little
Martin Whiskin 23:26
insight into that type of work. The reason so many telephone messages and hold systems and menu systems like that are terrible, is because the business whose phone system that is they never have to listen to it. It’s not their problem.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 23:43
Yeah,
Martin Whiskin 23:43
So it’s always the caller’s the cup, someone is phoning up to solve their own problem. So that the business doesn’t care about what that person has to go through on the phone because they have to find that business. They’ve got no choice. So they’re phoning their bank, they’ve got to phone the bank, they can’t find another bank, because they’re not with that bank. Yeah. So it’s just a captive audience that they can kind of just let sit there and not worry about
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 24:08
So and this is this is what kind of baffles me, makes me confused because this is this is really, really important for you know, if someone has been sitting in queue for 45 minutes listening to horrific music, and you’re still in line as number five, then you’re in a bad mood when you when you when you enter that or the tax system in Denmark is like they, they come with good advice. It’s like Did you know that you could log in and do all of these things yourself without calling a service help?
Martin Whiskin 24:49
I think they’re looking at it as the problem is on the caller side. They need to speak to us. We can treat them how we want but actually, what you know what you’ve mentioned there is the fact that when someone’s on, on hold, they’re already annoyed because they just want to speak to someone.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 25:05
Yeah,
Martin Whiskin 25:05
So when they get through, they give the person on the other end of the phone a hard time, because they’re just in a bad mood. So the problem, in fact is with bad staff morale, which needs to be dealt with, that’s the way they need to think about it, but they don’t. Because again, they don’t care about their staff either.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 25:24
Now we know now we’re getting close to is sticking it to the man Martin! 🙂
My last note on giving and being the giver of feedback, is something I also feel is, is really, really difficult. But it’s also sometimes misunderstood. And that’s the being candid without being aggressive. So being candid, is just extremely important. And not sugarcoating, or trying to put like, what you call it, when you when you don’t really tell the truth, because you’re afraid of hurting the other person’s feelings. And that is just really, really, it’s like, so the aggressive, so So here’s the thing. And here’s some tricks on how to do that as a giver a feedback. And typically, you do that by is like being candid without being aggressive. So aggression is when you attack the piece, or the person who made the piece. So instead of saying, I think, or I see, or I don’t understand, and then you kind of give feedback on a piece, you say, you did this wrong, or I don’t like what you did there. So so it ate a tip or trick can be to kind of put the responsibility of, of understanding on your own shoulder instead of putting it on the other person’s shoulder, if that makes sense. So, so like this also works in relationships, by the way. If you can take it from your own perspective, instead of trying to tell other, it’s like, no, we’re back to telling people what to do, right? So being candid is is absolutely important. And, and you can be kind and candid at the same time. It doesn’t. And the trick is to make it not personal, towards the person listening.
I have to say, just like throughout my career, feedback, and giving and receiving feedback has always been really, really like something I’ve been focusing on because I understand how important it is to be able to actually let someone tell you something, and then use that to improve your stuff. Because I would say that any design you do ever won’t be good. If you if someone else didn’t actually look at it and give you feedback. And that can be customers that can be you know, users of the product you’re you’re making, or are another small tip I forgot about Martin is whenever you want feedback on something, the earlier you can get feedback, the better it is. And the more crappy it can look, the better it is. And the reason why is. So for example, if you can make some wireframes of a design or a a quick sketch of, you know, the tune that you wanted. So instead of sitting for three weeks and involving yourself deeply in a project, you can get the outline where you know, it’s not good enough, you know, it needs improvement. But instead of waiting until you think it’s perfect, you get someone to look at it before it’s done. Because at that moment, and that was all the way back to being the receiver and not attaching yourself to your work. I forgot about that. Then the earlier you can get someone to feedback. And there’s two positive effects of this. One is you don’t attach yourself as tightly to the work that you did. So you don’t identify as much because you know that it’s not done. And in your message you should never say or argue well, well, it’s not done. So I can’t use that but but so that’s sometimes the danger is that you kind of excuse your poor decision. With, with that it’s not done, but when it comes to, to giving feedback as well, it’s easier to give feedback on something where you can see it’s not done. Because it means that, that you know that it won’t hurt that person as much when you give candid feedback,
Martin Whiskin 30:18
Because it’s not like a finished piece, if you’re giving someone like a wireframe, they’re not clouded by the aesthetics of it, how it looks, or they’re actually focusing on the problem that it’s so or if it can solve the problem, as opposed to, you know, oh, no, doesn’t look very nice.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 30:33
Yes. Like that. That is one amazing side effect as well. And also, it you know, the, the the wireframe also signals that a lot of time wasn’t used on this. So for you, as a giver a feedback, you’re not as worried of hurting the receivers feelings when you give feedback. Because if you see something that’s completely done, and and really finished, and you don’t like it, you know, that it’s three weeks of work that needs to be redone. And so you’re, you’re more likely to subconsciously, not be honest about the feedback you give, because you understand the implications of of being honest, if that makes sense. And you really, truly have to be honest, every is like as a giver, a feedback candid. But there’s just some some things that will make you not be candidate by nature, because, because you care about like, and the more you care about the other person, the worse it is, it’s like the heavier, the heavier the, the more you would like to avoid making that other person sad.
Most of this has been practical, like how do you do this? But do you have some examples of good feedback?
Martin Whiskin 32:01
Well, I think we spoke about it with the voiceover thing. So I, you know, that was the, how I received feedback in my current role. And I’m just trying to think if I was ever given really given much feedback in my last actual job, because I was kind of the only person in the office who knew how to do what I did. So I just did it. And if I didn’t, if I, if we come up with a problem, I had to solve it myself, because there was no one to ask yet.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 32:29
Well, sometimes just like being prepared, even though and I guess that’s a really good point, Martin, is that even though the person sometimes people will say, Well, I don’t know anything about this. So how can I give feedback? Well, I would say, anyone can give feedback on anything. If you set them as like, as a receiver, and if you prepare well enough, you can get feedback on a lot of different things. And you can get people to ask questions about something. So I think, I think that is that’s actually a good example of, of, of where feedback would be really, really nice. But you couldn’t it’s like you wouldn’t get it, I guess.
Martin Whiskin 33:13
Can you also class feedback as my first thought was, like a comedian, geek, for example.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 33:21
Ohh Yeah,
Martin Whiskin 33:22
And whether whether people laugh or not, is feedback on his work, stand
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 33:28
up comedy is like great that way, but I guess they do. And you will see this, a lot of great comedians will also go into small clubs, to test new material. And, and see if they get laugh or responses that they would like or think that they should get on the different jokes. I think that’s, that’s a good example, as well. I practice with like when I went to design school many, many years ago, we would practice giving and receiving feedback on each other all the time. That really helped me and with the design team I have today where we’re eight designers. We also practice actually, every day, we have a design, mini review, we call it so 15 minutes, where someone present something and then everyone else in the group will just hammer at it. And it’s absolutely magnificent. I love it so much. So So I think it’s like practice is also a an advice and it doesn’t have to take long. It’s like we do 15 minutes of feedback session every day. And it it works brilliantly. And I would recommend anyone to do that. And you can take anything up. It’s more the practice of giving feedback and receiving feedback than it is. Actually, you know, what you’re getting feedback on. I don’t know like, in this episode, Martin, is it clear that I am not at 100%.
Martin Whiskin 35:05
Even if you were 10%, that’s more than I am. No is I think it’s been good. It’s yeah. And what you were just saying that about, like practicing with the giving and receiving feedback, same with everything, isn’t it? You need to practice at this stuff, you can’t just expect to be great at giving feedback if you’re a nice person.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 35:26
No, no, it’s like being a nice person is not a prerequisite of giving good feedback.
Martin Whiskin 35:32
Because it’s it, I think it’s human nature. Like when we’re watching films and stuff like that, at home, or listening to an album or something, it’s human nature to turn to the person that you might be with and say, That was shit, that film or something, if you if you didn’t like it, you don’t sort of, because there’s no one to listen to your feedback on the film. So so what I think I’m getting out there is is often human nature, to not give good feedback to just be immediately, immediately dismissive of things don’t like that song.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 36:04
And, and so as a as a giver, and receiver feedback. It’s like, and this is this is, this is why it’s so important to focus on, on understanding what needs to be done, and focusing on the problems instead of solutions. Because, and you’re absolutely right, when you look at a movie, or you’re watching a movie like that, and you say that was absolute shit, then, then in the end, you’re not constructive about it. And you you don’t, you can’t like, most of the time, you can’t say what it’s like, it was just the mood or the story was weak, or, but you don’t really have anything specific. You just didn’t like that movie. And, but, and that ties into, like, if you start analyzing it and asking questions to the person, why didn’t you like it? Typically, even though they’re not movie makers or professional in movies, they’ll be able to give you some great feedback if you’re just like the instructor listening. And I guess that’s a little bit my point is that anyone can give feedback, because everyone can have an opinion about something. If you if you use those people to try to come up with a solution, you’re doing it wrong, what you have to do is try to understand the problems that they see or experience, which is why everyone can give feedback, because they will experience some problems or challenges. And then obviously, the closer to the real customer or real end user or the better it is. But anyone can really you can get feedback from anyone
Martin Whiskin 37:45
on that note, we should ask feedback from everyone about our podcast. I remember to focus on the problems and not the solution. Yes. They’ve just tell us it’s shit.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 37:59
First, tell us that shit. And then tell us why. Yeah, and then and then we can have a conversation based on that.
Martin Whiskin 38:06
Thank you for listening to another episode of Hidden by design. You can find out more about us at hidden by design.net. Or you can find us on LinkedIn. My name is Martin whisking. This is Toby on Ling God Sorensen not Yes, got it. That’s good. You can also like, subscribe, follow the podcast on all of the platforms as important. Do follow it on all of the platforms. Give us five stars. And an excellent review please as well. Thank you.
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 38:32
Can I say something?
Martin Whiskin 38:33
No!
Thorbjørn Lynggaard Sørensen 38:34
We love you. I said something in which I’m a bad boy.